Argumentation on Reddit
[009] Struck Dead
Username: Additional_Goose_556
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Interlocutor: Redditor12, Redditor13, Redditor14 (agnostic atheist)
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Subreddit: DebateReligion
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Preface: Redditor12 posed an argument against God which started a tiny interaction between myself and some other Redditors. After several days, Redditor12 eventually deleted the entire the argument they posted. The only way I am able to showcase this one is by observing screenshots I captured of the argument at the time. Perhaps they realized it was a poor argument and became embarrassed by it.
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Redditor12:
God either lied, got Moses to lie, or completely lost control of himself in Numbers 11
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Context: The Israelites are wandering the desert. God has given them Manna, but they are sick of it, and wail for meat instead.
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Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: "Who will give us meat to eat? We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!"
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Moses brings this request before God. He's so sick of the moaning from the Israelites he'd literally rather die than hear them go on.
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Where am I to get meat to give to all these people? For the weep all over me, saying, 'Give us meat, that we may eat.' I am not able to bear all these people alone, because the burden is too heavy for me. If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now - If I have found favor in Your sight - and do not let me see my wretchedness!"
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God is annoyed by this spectacle and gathers 71 witnesses to whom he proclaims what will come to pass.
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Then you shall say to the people, 'Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the hearing of the Lord, saying, "Who will give us meat to eat? For it was well with us in Egypt."* Therefore the Lord will give you meat, and you shall eat. You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days, but for a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you, because you have despised the Lord who is among you, and have wept before Him, saying, "Why did we ever come up out of Egypt?" ' "
Note carefully the claims:
1. They will consume such vast quantities of meat their overconsumption will become a curse to them.
2. A month will pass BEFORE the meat becomes loathsome.
Even Moses is skeptical about how this will actually happen. He asks God to clarify, to which God makes a point of telling Moses to wait and see how this plays out.
Shall flocks and herds be slaughtered for them, to provide enough for them? Or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to provide enough for them?" And the Lord said to Moses, "Has the Lord's arm been shortened? Now you shall see whether what I say will happen to you or not."
So what actually happened?
* Now a wind went out from the Lord, and it brought quail from the sea and left them fluttering near the camp, about a day's journey on this side and about a day's journey on the other side, all around the camp, and about two cubits above the surface of the ground. And the people stayed up all that day, all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers); and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. *
Looking good. If what God said was true, they'll feast on this quail for a month before their overconsumption gets the better of them and the meat literally starts seeping from their sinuses.
But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord struck the people with a very great plague. So he called the name of that place Kibroth Hattaavah, because there they buried the people who had yielded to craving.
Oh.
Even after God challenged Moses to "wait and see" if God's decree come to pass, it did not happen the way God said it would.
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They did not eat the quail for a month. They were not overcome with overconsumption. They didn't even swallow the quail before being struck with a great plague and dying.
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Huge problem.
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If God knew it would play out this way, but told Moses it would go differently, God lied.
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If God actually intended for the overconsumption curse to carry out, but was provoked so badly that he changed his mind in the heat of the moment, God is emotionally unstable in such a way that can compromise his own plans. That is not omniscience.
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Additional_Goose_556:
Therefore the Lord will give you meat, and you shall eat. You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days, but for a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you...
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So they ate meat for a whole month until it became loathsome to them.
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God's action:
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But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord struck the people with a very great plague. So he called the name of that place Kibroth Hattaavah, because there they buried the people who had yielded to craving.
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So they were immediately struck with a great plague.
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Being immediately struck with a great plague does not mean you will not eat meat for a whole month until it becomes loathsome to you.
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Conclusion:
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They were immediately struck with a great plague right before they ate meat for a whole month until it became loathsome to them. Then they died and were buried there.
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They did not eat the quail for a month. They were not overcome with overconsumption. They didn't even swallow the quail before being struck with a great plague and dying. Huge problem.
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The huge problem is your non-sequitur. I think you need to practice deductive reasoning and reading comprehension.
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[Redditor12 left the chat]
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Redditor13:
The huge problem is your non-sequitur. I think you need to practice deductive reasoning and reading comprehension.
The huge problem is your unnecessary d*****baggery. Make your argument without insulting the person you're arguing against. Be the decent person you can be, instead of the worthless d*****bag that you are.
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Additional_Goose_556:
The huge problem is your unnecessary d*****baggery. Make your argument without insulting the person you're arguing against. Be the decent person you can be, instead of the worthless d*****bag that you are.
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No, the huge problem is definitely their non-sequitur. Faulty reasoning is worse than correction, bud.
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You didn't like when I corrected them, did you?
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Why don't you make your argument without insulting the person you're arguing against? Hypocrite.
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[Redditor13 left the chat]
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Redditor14:
Being immediately struck with a great plague does not mean you will not eat meat for a whole month until it becomes loathsome to you.
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What the h*** are you talking about? If you eat meat once, and then you're immediately struck dead before you even have time to swallow it, of course that means you will not eat meat for a whole month.
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Additional_Goose_556:
What the h*** are you talking about?
I'm talking about the topic, bud.
If you eat meat once, and then you're immediately struck dead before you even have time to swallow it, of course that means you will not eat meat for a whole month.
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The Bible doesn't say they were struck dead.
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Redditor14:
The Bible doesn't say they were struck dead.
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Hmm, fair point. I should've considered that in verse 34, when it says "they buried the people who had been greedy," it just meant the greedy people were buried alive for some reason.
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Additional_Goose_556:
Hmm, fair point. I should've considered that in verse 34, when it says "they buried the people who had been greedy," it just meant the greedy people were buried alive for some reason.
It's OK to consider that. They were either buried alive or dead.
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Also consider, it doesn't specify how long after being struck by the plague they were buried.
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Redditor14:
It's OK to consider that. They were either buried alive or dead.
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Seriously, that's what you're going with? There really is no limit to the mental gymnastics people will engage in to avoid admitting the Bible might be fallible.
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Fair warning, I'm done with this discussion. Reply if you feel like you want the last word, but I won't be reading it.
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Additional_Goose_556:
Seriously, that's what you're going with? There really is no limit to the mental gymnastics people will engage in to avoid admitting the Bible might be fallible.
LOL! You attack your suggestion and not my note below it.
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Fair warning, I'm done with this discussion. Reply if you feel like you want the last word, but I won't be reading it.
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That is fine, you'd probably be reading into it anyway.
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For Redditor14, reading comprehension + consideration = mental gymnastics.
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[Redditor14 left the chat]
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